See also

James FIENES ( - )

1. James FIENES, son of William FIENES (1357-1402) and Elizabeth BATISFORD ( - ), married Emmeline CRO(W)MER circa 1419 in Willingham, Cambridgeshire.


For service in the Hundred Years War in France, Henry V awarded him with the lordship of Court-le-Comte, the governorship of Arques, and Captain-Generalship of towns on the Seine. He built Knole, co. Kent, with spoils from service in France. From the time he attended Henry VI at his coronation in Paris in 1431, he steadily advanced in royal offices including those of King’s Serjeant, Knight of the Body, Constable of Dover Castle, Warden of the Cinque Ports, King’s Chamberlain, member of the Privy Council, Constable of the Tower, and finally Treasurer of England. This latter position he held from 22 Sep 1449 until 22 Jun 1450 when the weak Henry VI yielded to the indictment of the House of Commons scapegoating Fiennes for the loss of Anjou and Maine and remanded him to the Tower. While awaiting trial, Jack Cade’s mob seized him in the Tower and dragged him to the Standard at Cheapside where he was beheaded— his gory end being dramatized in Shakespeare’s Henry VI.

James Fiennes was created Baron Saye and Sele by Letters Patent from Henry VI by 24 Feb 1447 and summoned to Parliament for the first time 3 Mar 1447. Geoffrey White concluded that although the actual patent disappeared and was never enrolled there could be no doubt that the remainder vested to the heirs male of the body of the grantee and that the title did not arise from a writ of summons that at that time probably would have descended to heirs general. These tangled claims have led historians and genealogists astray. This compound title was partly personal, commemorating the grantee’s descent from his grandmother’s family, the Lords Say, a title since 1399 in abeyance between the heirs of Idonea Say Clinton and Joan Say Fiennes; and partly territorial, after Sele, formerly called Beeding, a priory in Saumur, co. Kent. After becoming a peer, he abandoned the Fiennes arms, Azure, three lions rampant or, for those of the Lords Say, Quarterly, or and gules. Sir Anthony Wagner links these arms with the families of Beauchamp of Bedford, Clavering, Lacy, and Vere because they, as well as the Saye family, were all connected with the rebel Earl of Essex, Geoffrey De Mandeville, who died in 1144. They are based on the quarterly coat of or and gules adopted by Essex.


Emmeline CRO(W)MER and James FIENES had the following children:


William FIENES (c. 1442-1471). William was born circa 1442 in Broughton Castle, Oxfordshire. He had the title '2nd Baron Saye and Sele'. He died on 14 April 1471 in the Battle of Barnet.

Second Generation

2. William FIENES, son of Sir William FIENES Kt. and Joan de SAY, was born in 1357. He was baptised on 1 August 1357 in Hurstmonceaux. He married Elizabeth BATISFORD circa 1382 in Wartling, Sussex. He died on [Julian] 18 January 1402. He was buried in Hurstmonceaux.


"only son and heir, Sheriff of Surrey and Sussex 1397 and 1399.


3. Elizabeth BATISFORD was the daughter of William BATISFORD. She and William FIENES had the following children:



James FIENES ( - )

Third Generation

4. Sir William FIENES Kt., son of Sir John FIENES Kt. and Maud MONCEAUX, was born on [Julian] 2 February 1331 in Hurstmonceaux, Sussex. He married Joan de SAY on 12 November 1351 in Sawbridgeworth, Herts.. He died on 30 November 1359 in France.


Second Son. The baronial line of Saye became extinct with the death of John De Saye, fourth Baron Saye, in 1382 according to ancient peerage doctrine, or in 1399 when his sister Elizabeth, Baroness Say in her own right, died, according to modern peerage doctrine. In either case the representation fell into abeyance between the descendants of the sisters of the third Baron Say: Idonea who married the third Baron Clinton and; Joan who married Sir William Fiennes.


5. Joan de SAY, daughter of Geoffrey de SAY and Maud de BEAUCHAMP, married Stephen de VALENCE.


She was third daughter and coheir to her father and brother, afterwards married Stephen de Valence.


William FIENES and Joan de SAY had the following children:



William FIENES (1357-1402)


6. William BATISFORD has few details recorded about him.


William BATISFORD had the following children:



Elizabeth BATISFORD ( - )